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I am very sad to have to comment this discussion logfile. Ashtarot, 19. Oct '97
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| lacey~~~~u> | we are microsoft... you will be assimilated.....resistance is futile |
| Net + jen> | Yeah... let's get this show on the road! <grinning> |
| Ash & maya> | <pulls on the rope to open the stage curtain> |
| Net + jen> | Thanks to everyone for coming tonight... we're going to discuss
the topic of D/s contracts. I have a little background material that I'll throw out first and then open the floor for comments/discussion. A major step in any D/s relationship is the signing of a contract or agreement between the Dominant and submissive. Although these contracts may not be legally binding in a court of law, the agreement should not be taken lightly. Careful consideration should be given to the conditions of the contract before either sign on the dotted line. What is a contract? A contract is an agreement between a Dominant and submissive which outlines each participant's rights and responsibilities. These contracts can be very specific, detailing such things as required duties, limitations, and punishment, or they can be quite general, depending on the needs of the couple. The important thing is that it is something you both can live with for its duration. How long does it last? Contracts can be stipulated for any length of time. One hour, one day, a month, or open-ended, depending on what the couple desires. Most offer a cancellation clause, should circumstances arise where one or both parties no longer desire to be bound by the contract. Why is it important? One of the things that causes most D/s relationships to fail is a misunderstanding over the expectations each has in the relationship. Surprises such as, "I didn't know he'd want me to do *that*" or "She never told me she didn't like *this*" can be avoided. Signing a contract provides a framework within the boundaries of which each can live and develop the bond of trust so essential in any relationship. Sitting down and spelling it all out in black and white can save a lot of disappointment and frustration later. The process of negotiating the contract in itself can be beneficial, as well. It opens the doors to communication, both exploring and verbalizing what their expectations are, discussing limits, and arriving at a mutually agreed upon document. This is critical; it can not be one-sided. It isn't something the Dominant draws up in isolation with the expectation that the submissive will sign it without comment. They should also be reviewed together periodically. This serves two purposes. It reinforces the bond of the contract and allows for changes as the relationship grows. Yesterday's limits may no longer apply. That is all the "formal material" I have on contracts in general... are there any couples here that have a D/s contract between eachother? |
| Ash & maya> | first of all - thanks for the great introduction, Net |
| Net + jen> | you're welcome Ash! |
| sun~Treowe> | it was very informative |
| Triton©> | Thanx Net & jen wish I could read as fast as she types |
| Ash & maya> | let me play the devils advocat :-) -- a relationship which is based on a contract can that be a love relationship? |
| LittleMo<M> | Thanks net + jen. (who is the fast typer?) |
| Net + jen> | <grinning> That was me (Netolio) and thanks to the macros! |
| Triton©> | When gwen and I where together We had a contrat thats took 2 weeks to build |
| judys> | So when in a relationship do you decide a contract is necessary....at the point of submission?? |
| gary©~Rebe> | when is a contract need?/ everytime they meet ? |
| LittleMo<M> | Net excuse me |
| lacey~~~~u> | yes Ash Sir...it is a relationship of love |
| Triton©> | purly verbal but We both where included in it's contents |
| LittleMo<M> | also like You said, a contract has to be reviewed frequently |
| lacey~~~~u> | each partner loves each other enuff to want to be clear about
their expectations, so that the trust needed can be developed imho |
| Net + jen> | My opinion is that a contract could help in the early stages of a relationship... but as trust and "familiarity" builds between the couple, the contract seems less "necessary". |
| PIRATE> | No relationship should be entered until the trust is there |
| judys> | Have any of you ever used a playlist with a new partner? |
| Net + jen> | my opinion (jen's) is that a contract isn't necessary...i feel it would cut back on communication between the D/s couple |
| gary©~Rebe> | if i meet my Mistress r/t should there be a contract first ?? |
| Triton©> | No judy I've never felt I needed it as long as a safe word was inplace |
| LittleMo<M> | Thats one thing folks forget about - Trust! Also understanding |
| sun~Treowe> | i agree with jen on that |
| ~*lillee*~> | <slipping quietly in and listening to see where the conversation is> |
| Ash & maya> | a playlist could serve the purpose aswell - it can show the likes and dislikes of both |
| lacey~~~~u> | yes but playlists are for playing, a contract is etablishing
something more long term (((((lillee)))) |
| judys> | Triton, but doesn't a playlist give you an idea from the start where your partner is in terms of playing? |
| Net + jen> | a playlist is good in getting an idea of the limits between the couple, but the contract stipulates how those limits are to be handled |
| PIRATE> | I have a 24/7 sub and have never me or her deamed it nessary for a contract except one of the heart |
| judys> | Oh, i agree, Net & jen...a playlist does not take the place of a contract. |
| Triton©> | The contract if verbal always allows B/both partners to know what is wanted and expected so ths line ov comunication is opend from the start |
| Gryphon> | a contract can include things beyond the details of what forms of play are within the limits and which are not |
| Triton©> | I usually knoe that fron our talking judy |
| Net + jen> | jen and I disagree on the topic of communication being jeopardized in the creation of the contract... I think there is considerable communication that has to take place to "draw up" the contract to begin with. |
| judys> | Pirate, i kind of agree with you....why is a D/s relationship any different than a vanilla...if you know your partner's limits, then the rest is still a relationship thing. |
| PIRATE> | That is how I feel judy... our way of play may be different but in all respects a 24/7 is no different than a girlfriend or wife |
| Triton©> | judys a Dom usually knows the starting point befor they begin |
| Net + jen> | jen says....what happens in the case where a contract is drawn
up and when the submissive does something wrong or vice versa...i can see the contract
being thrown in the faces of the two all of the time...i think it cuts the communication
down...if you rely on a contract to stipulate your wants and needs, then you feel you
can't speak openly to your partner imho |
| Ash & maya> | let me re-ask a previous asked question - when is the right time to think about a contract? - a playlist could be the start of a contract to get to know the partners limits and desires - can it be the base of a contract? |
| Triton©> | it's wher they end that should be learned |
| judys> | Triton, a *good* Dom should....but we have so many wannabees that i can see that this kind of discussion could help some!! |
| lacey~~~~u> | i think it can be Ash Sir, but i am not sure as to when it should be drrawn up |
| Net + jen> | i think (jen) that a contract should be drawn up when the two know each other very well |
| Triton©> | LOL that has been the bain of these conf's for a yr now but there is no Dom 101 course given |
| lacey~~~~u> | perhaps the contract and the collaring should be close together? |
| judys> | jen, you don't think that it should be agreed upon at the time of submission? |
| Triton©> | thats why the conversation is so important |
| Net + jen> | Ash... I think the "timing" depends on the couple... some might feel that a contract close to the first meeting is necessary... others might think when the couple go r/t. |
| PIRATE> | A good sub should know the difference between a Master and a wantabe... a contract will not change a wantabe |
| Triton©> | If thers is goning to be a collar then the contract should be befor I think |
| Net + jen> | no judy...what happens in the time that a free sub submits to a Dom...should there be a contract drawn up everytime a sub submits, even when not collared to a particular Master? |
| ~*lillee*~> | i think a playlist is a beginning, but not the basis a contract should be cemented on....because it can/will change |
| Triton©> | Excatly lillee bounds expand with the releationship[ |
| ~*lillee*~> | <nodding> |
| Net + jen> | <--- agrees with lillee but thinks that some of the topics in the playlist could be included in the contract/ |
| Ash & maya> | that's why Net said a contract should be reviewd at times - to maybe adapt it to the new limits |
| PIRATE> | With free speach and trust and understanding the needs of each other I see no need for a contract |
| judys> | i think it should be seriously thought about at time of collaring. The playlist or good discussion could take care of how we play together, but to cement the relationship the contract may be needed so there is no confusion. |
| Triton©> | Then again I'm not one to talk here since I have a hard time
keeping a sub LOL |
| ~*lillee*~> | i think it also depends on the relationship...i know of some who have this (so they say) strictly aside from other relationships...like a business arrangement with a date of termination...altho i can't see how one could terminate feelings which develop |
| Net + jen> | <nodding at Ash> jen has a good point though if the couple's relationship is very dynamic, the contract would be updated quite often! <grin> |
| judys> | Hugs, Triton...when the right one comes along, you will not have a hard time!! |
| Net + jen> | i agree with you Pirate, Sir! |
| ~*lillee*~> | yes, definite i'm gonna call the police limits.... |
| Triton©> | LOL judys you don't know Me that well but thanx |
| PIRATE> | Would someone give me the definition of submission? |
| Triton©> | huggs are always welcome |
| Net + jen> | does anyone here see what i see when i say that a contract could be continuously thrown into the face of another if not followed? |
| Triton©> | a Dom's or a sub's |
| judys> | Pirate, i think that definition could be different for each relationship. |
| Treowe> | I see...that Net.. |
| PIRATE> | I agree Net |
| ~*lillee*~> | yes, Net, Sir, i can |
| John~*~kit> | Pirate.....in the strictest sense...a contract is an offer..and an acceptance...so submission itself is a contract...the more formal written one is, or may not be needed..depending on the relationship..and the communicative skills used..among other things... |
| Net + jen> | (giggling) that was me, (pointing to jen) |
| judys> | Yes, i agree, jen... |
| ~*lillee*~> | yes, sis <hug> |
| judys> | Teehee, could tell from the *i*'s |
| Net + jen> | trying to confuse y'all hiya sis! (hugs) |
| PIRATE> | submission true submission is complete... no limits asked or given |
| Triton©> | Then there is a problem with the relelationship if it needs to be thrown at all |
| Treowe> | Hard to come by though Pirate....don't you think? |
| Net + jen> | Pirate... you could lead this discussion into the difference between submission and slavery! LOL But that's not the topic. |
| sun~Treowe> | exactly....there must be complete communication between the partners or the relationship will begin to go downhill |
| PIRATE> | I have one Treowe.. |
| Triton©> | and a contract is the least of the problems |
| Treowe> | You are lucky then. |
| John~*~kit> | PIRATE..the true submission is an offer of all that the submissive has...and you accept all that htey are..hence a contract... |
| ~*lillee*~> | i've never really thoght about having a contract...to me, the relationship develops, becomes trusting, deeeper, the communication shuold be there, along with the mutual repsect |
| Net + jen> | i agree with you, sis |
| PIRATE> | mistie is not my slave she has her own mind of which I ask her to voice but she submits to my wishes |
| Triton©> | Pirate I have alwyas keep the gift of my sub close to My heart and cherished it |
| Net + jen> | imho, i feel the collar represents the 'contract' |
| PIRATE> | and does not need to know I love her and will not hurt written on a piece of paper it is understood... |
| ~*lillee*~> | <nodding at sis> yes! |
| John~*~kit> | <---agrees with Net/jen...although others have a different view... |
| Triton©> | jusy figured out what imho is LOL |
| Ash & maya> | I do not agree, jen - the collar can be the signature under the contract - but not the contract itself |
| kitten~*~J> | yes jen *smiling* for things are discussed (or at least should be) before the collar is ever placed |
| ~*lillee*~> | it is the commitment that is important |
| judys> | lillee, i have not ever felt the need for a contract either. i have many friends into D/s and only a handful have contracts. The rest handle the relationship like any other relationship only with D/s thrown in. |
| Net + jen> | What about the idea of the contract having a date attached? |
| lacey~~~~u> | i don't see the sense in that |
| judys> | What for?? |
| ~*lillee*~> | <nodding at judys> |
| Net + jen> | Ash, what more do you put into a contract that isn't already said when collaring, Sir? |
| lacey~~~~u> | why be obligated if the feelings aren't there? |
| ~*mistie*~> | why would a contract have a date on it? that doesnt make any sense |
| Ash & maya> | and a contract mustn't be written down - the idea of a written contract is to fix the thoughts and wishes on a piece of paper - the main idea of a contract is to communicate about the wishes both have |
| ~*lillee*~> | one thing i noticed is that some of those over on AOL are into this like it is a science, testing this and that....making it technical and not a beautiful loving relationship--they often use contracts |
| lacey~~~~u> | and feelings that grow do not expire on a set date |
| PIRATE> | I have lived this lifestyle R/T for over 11 years and have never signed a contract either as a sub or as a Master.... and yes I have been 24/7 as a sub.. |
| Net + jen> | Some contracts due have dates... it is so that it can be "renegotiated" from time to time. |
| judys> | Net & jen, a contract does not need a date to be renegotiated. |
| Net + jen> | (nodding) you just hit it on the nose, sis.....a contract takes away so much, i think |
| lacey~~~~u> | so i would have to wait until the next reneg period? |
| Triton©> | I think We have to remember what type of contract We're talking about |
| John~*~kit> | I know I had many a long discussion of what W/we both wanted, needed, rules, etc. prior to placing the collar..and agreement with all of the particulars...so that I think is a "contract"...my 2 cents.. |
| ~*lillee*~> | i could never sign a contract saying our relationship ends at 12:01am on Sept 30, 1998 |
| ~*mistie*~> | isnt that why that those involed speak to each other freely? open communication is the key |
| Net + jen> | (nodding in agreement with mistie) |
| Ash & maya> | I think you are right, John |
| lacey~~~~u> | yes mistie... communication...honesty...trust |
| Net + jen> | communication is needed in a D/s relationship...more so than in any other one...a contract takes from doing just that |
| Triton©> | < agrees with John |
| ~*lillee*~> | a contract is also restricting |
| John~*~kit> | That, and a contract such as this..well, it truly is only as good as the word of the signatories...so that, written or not...it exists.. |
| Triton©> | I thinking about I really hate contracts in any form |
| Gryphon> | just because a contract runs out doesn't mean the relationship does, it just sets a time when you sit down again to discuss where your relationship is ... if you need to ... or else just say "keep things the same for 6 more months" or whatever |
| Net + jen> | lillee... the contract might have a date... not the relationship! |
| PIRATE> | takes away the learning of new things |
| judys> | Yes, mistie, even in a 24/7 relationship there are times when the partners will talk as equals. |
| Triton©> | I would rather have open dialogue |
| PIRATE> | I agree Triton |
| Net + jen> | (noticing that the Doms want the contracts and subs don't) a power thing? |
| Triton©> | > Likes the sound of pleading lol |
| lacey~~~~u> | i see both sides of this issue tho *shaking head* |
| Triton©> | sorry |
| kitten~*~J> | i feel that wanting to change something in the D/s relationship shouldn't wait until a specific date |
| Ash & maya> | so we can say - a contract, written on paper or not - is a tools to communicate on the relationship between D and s and a help to express their wishes and expectations? |
| Treowe> | I am not for a contract.....not a written one.....per se |
| lacey~~~~u> | i think so |
| Gryphon> | N + j: a contract is more for the sub's benefit |
| John~*~kit> | Has never been one to say..well, you can renegotiate this item in a few months....always am I willing to listen to my chosen..and speak with her..for truly, the relationship suffers when the needs of both are not being met... |
| Net + jen> | <agrees with kitten> |
| ~*mistie*~> | yes i agree with you on that judys |
| PIRATE> | no Ash because I in no way agree with a contract |
| ~*mistie*~> | <agrees with kitten> |
| Ash & maya> | so you don't talk with your subs what you expect from them, Pirate? |
| Triton©> | May I ask a ? to the groupe |
| Net + jen> | Gryphon... I don't necessarily agree... the aspect of
"expectations" and limits goes both ways. Sure Triton.. go ahead. |
| onixia~Wil> | WillowKnight and I have a contract but it is very general ... more an acknowledgement of our deep commitment to each other..there are no dates or restrictions other than to always respect each other and keep open communication between each other |
| Triton©> | In a D/s releationship is the thing's most needed TRUST HONESTY and RESPECT |
| Gryphon> | wellll ... yes ... but the D is much more likely than the s to introduce change into the relationship ... a contract limits that change |
| ~*mistie*~> | Ash Sir he speaks to me every day Sir....but there is no need for a contract....that is not the basis of O/our realtion...communtican , trust and honesty is |
| PIRATE> | Right Triton |
| Triton©> | ANd shouldn't they be given bye both befor a collar is given or taken |
| judys> | onixia, that can be either written or verbal, right? |
| onixia~Wil> | right |
| Triton©> | Then isn't a contract very simple |
| Net + jen> | Triton... I agree with you... but some D/s couples might feel that the signing of a contract is a sign of taking an "extra step". |
| John~*~kit> | Indeed, Triton....if the foundation of the relationship is built from those..and is strong..a written document becomes..well...just a bit extraneous... |
| Triton©> | ans " ectra step" doesn't mean a contract it's the
extention of the releationship extra too |
| PIRATE> | Net no offence but I see a signature on a piece of paper a step backward when it comes to trust |
| Net + jen> | <playing the devil's advocate> isn't it a bit harder to "comply" with a contract? |
| Triton©> | Not at all if you believe in it |
| judys> | Net , but doesn't ongoing conversations between the Dom/me and sub take the place of a contract?? |
| onixia~Wil> | For me signing our contract was like a formal acknowledgement of all we had discussed previously and agreed upon |
| Net + jen> | judys... yes, I agree that the communication must be there. |
| ~*mistie*~> | <agrees with judys> |
| Net + jen> | <nodding at onixia> and did you feel any more "serious" about everything having signed the contract? |
| Ash & maya> | a contract does not replace the need of communication - neither the trust that has to be in a relationship |
| John~*~kit> | Well, I think...that the "rules", etc...written or not...are there..and will be complied with...all the paper does is give someone a tool to use.."you did not meet rule 16b..instead of talking about the failed expectation... |
| judys> | Okay...so we have a contract in place....what happens if one or the other partner does something to break that contract? |
| Triton©> | exactly judys |
| Net + jen> | <nodding at John> |
| princess> | I know I am entering rather late...but I do not see the need for a contract either |
| Triton©> | do you go to arbitration |
| onixia~Wil> | yes in a way I did feel more serious..and more commited to the relationship..almost like a marriage |
| Ash & maya> | you can't just sign a contract and lean back and say - everything is okay now - it needs more to keep up a relationship |
| PIRATE> | do you break up the reLATIONSHIP |
| John~*~kit> | binding arbitration??...*small humor* |
| ~*lillee*~> | <nodding at Ash> |
| lacey~~~~u> | *giggles* |
| Triton©> | LOL john exactly |
| Net + jen> | it's not a legal piece of paper....the trust should be there, therefore, why the need for a contract? (jen speaking) |
| lacey~~~~u> | do we need a board of mediators? |
| PIRATE> | jen I agree |
| Net + jen> | <grinning at jen> then why the need for a marriage license? |
| Ash & maya> | but a contract can be an extension to the discussed - like onixia said earlier |
| Net + jen> | so you men will give us what we deserve when you divorce us! LMAO! |
| Triton©> | Thats a State Law not one between ppl |
| ~*mistie*~> | <agrees with jen> why have one...there is a need of trust, honesty and communication....no need for a contract in this one's eyes |
| Net + jen> | <reaching over and pinching jen> |
| ~*lillee*~> | it is an individual preference, some will need it, some will wish to have it, others will not want it at all |
| onixia~Wil> | exactly..there are no clauses and rules or laws in ours...just a mutual decision to love respect and always communicate with each other |
| ~*lillee*~> | <laughing at sis> |
| Net + jen> | if a sub refuses to have a contract, will you look at her differently? (directing this towards the ones that like contracts) |
| princess> | aren't those givens in any BDSM relationship onixia? |
| onixia~Wil> | Of course princess in a real true caring one. |
| princess> | those things were part of my "collaring" |
| ~*lillee*~> | i wouldn't have any other kind |
| princess> | we made a commitment to eachother... but have never had a need for a contract |
| Net + jen> | I don't think that the contracts are necessarily "needed" but could perhaps be a way to show more commitment! <throwing out the comment> |
| Ash & maya> | and what is the difference, princess? |
| Net + jen> | i agree with you, princess....the collar is the contract as are the words said to each other |
| Triton©> | commitment can never be written but must be shown |
| princess> | my question to you Ash... I have a full commitment...but do not feel the need for a contract on paper...to me that would somehow lessen it |
| Net + jen> | now, y'all haven't answered my question...will you 'ditch' a sub if she doesn't want to have a contract? |
| princess> | exactly Triton..knew there was a reason I liked you! |
| Ash & maya> | we did not say that a contract must be written on paper earlier |
| PIRATE> | and full submission is the greatest form of love and trust |
| Triton©> | Owuldn'r consider a sub who wnated one I wouldn't either |
| kyle*Shell> | my own persional experience wiyth BDSM contracts has been it strenghed my relationship with that Domme, a extre step to show the commitment, it really helped us at the time |
| ~*mistie*~> | <agress with princess> |
| Triton©> | It starts ith a lack of trust |
| Net + jen> | <looking at jen and smiling> not all couples need or want a contract and I personally would not require one. |
| ~*lillee*~> | the contract is only as good as the people who make it...one may be more sincere than the other, so when something happens, how could the contract have stopped it? |
| princess> | yes but kyle ... at that time you wanted more and were not getting it..it was a tool towards intimacy |
| PIRATE> | Right Triton... |
| kyle*Shell> | true princess |
| princess> | *soft smile at kyle* |
| kyle*Shell> | or i was wanting something and that was a tool that got it |
| princess> | perhaps many of us have "implied" contracts without the need to write it down |
| Net + jen> | lillee... no contract is perfect and going to prevent the unforseen... but it could prevent "expectations" of behavior from leading to a "problem"! |
| princess> | but isn't all of this discussed Net (guessing that was your comment) |
| Net + jen> | (shaking head at Master) then why the need for a contract and not the need to listen better to what your subs words are? that is all a contract is, no? |
| princess> | *grinning at jen* |
| Triton©> | I think that W/we are getting confused with a contract and good verbal comunication |
| ~*lillee*~> | but you can't get to that point without the communication, i would trust my Master to live up to his word without a piece of paper, because the collar is the contract to me |
| princess> | I had always understood that a BDSM contract was a written document..not a verbal one |
| Triton©> | *s* right you are lillee |
| Net + jen> | <smiles at lillee> |
| Ash & maya> | no princess |
| princess> | if you look it up...that is what you usually find Ash |
| ~*lillee*~> | <smiling back> |
| PIRATE> | I agree with princess |
| princess> | then I would suggest that anyone that wears a collar has a
contract *smiling at Pirate* |
| kyle*Shell> | i also asked my current Mistress for a contract, and it offened her, she said "ok but its just paper, you dont trust what i say" |
| Net + jen> | sorry, but my opinion is that not only does a contract break
down communication, but i feel as though it would lessen the relationship...it's too
formal and i would feel as if i was being bought! (jen speaking) |
| princess> | know all I need to know inside of me...would not need to have it written down |
| Triton©> | I don't know all but I keep trying |
| PIRATE> | I will not have a sub who requires a contract.... it shows a lack of trust in me and waht I say |
| Net + jen> | so, we in this forum are opposed to the idea of a contract? |
| ~*lillee*~> | i wouldn't want a formal contract |
| princess> | I am sure Chance would chuckle to himself and be sure I was
feeling neglected if I asked for one but lillee..don't you have a formal commitment? |
| ~*lillee*~> | not formal, |
| kyle*Shell> | i think there is one very good use of a contract |
| Net + jen> | and that is kyle? |
| Ash & maya> | again - isn't a collar a kind of contract? |
| Triton©> | and with That I must be off it was nice seeing old friends again Be Welll Be safe A/all. |
| ~*lillee*~> | and for what my collar is worth lately, not much of an informal one <laughing> |
| onixia~Wil> | Not formal contract with rules and laws stated..no |
| kyle*Shell> | in the train of a brand new sub, it teaches them the expatations of the relationship |
| Net + jen> | i think it is, Ash, Sir |
| ~*lillee*~> | yes, Ash, it is |
| Net + jen> | isn't that all that is needed? |
| princess> | sorry lillee..I did not know there was a problem |
| Net + jen> | the words between a Dom and sub |
| ~*lillee*~> | and no written or formal contract would change the outcome of a relationhship |
| Net + jen> | (hugging sis) |
| ~*lillee*~> | no biggie princess <smiling> thanks <hugging sis back> |
| PIRATE> | kyle a good Master does not need a piece of paper to show a sub waht is excepted of them |
| Net + jen> | <agees with Pirate> agrees even! LOL |
| ~*lillee*~> | lol |
| kyle*Shell> | But with a brand new sub Sir, it is all confusing it gives them a place to have a foot to grow from |
| princess> | My Master was clear from day one about what was and what was not expected and acceptable |
| judys> | Darn telephones....!!! |
| ~*lillee*~> | that is why they should spend time together and get to know each other, kyle...IMHO |
| kyle*Shell> | <---remembers the confusion |
| princess> | spent lots of time getting to know Chance before accepting his collar |
| Net + jen> | Ash, do you and maya have a contract and if so, are you sure to look it over to be sure it still is in date...imho, i see it being shoved to the back of the drawer in the kitchen...LOL |
| kyle*Shell> | it just my opion |
| ~*mistie*~> | that is when the Dom/mes and subs talk kyle communication....that is the key...you and your Mistress have to talk..about what is and isnt not expected of you |
| ~*lillee*~> | and of her, too, kyle |
| judys> | princess, that is true...you get to know your partner before you submit...by then you should know each other pretty well. |
| Ash & maya> | no - we don't have written contract - but we know what we expect from each other because we discussed it briefly |
| princess> | cannot imagine it any other way judys |
| ~*lillee*~> | that's what i mean, Ash |
| princess> | does she wear your collar, Ash? |
| Net + jen> | but you agree with contracts, yes Sir? |
| ~*lillee*~> | and you can keep discussing it from time to time |
| Ash & maya> | yes princess |
| judys> | Somehow i get the feeling like we are talking about a mechanical type of relationship. In any kind of relationship, there is a lot of discussion and ideas shared before the relationship is cemented, but it is NOT put down in writing unless you want to protect assets. |
| princess> | but you just said you considered the collar a contract right? |
| kyle*Shell> | it may just be me, but i remember wwhen i was with Demi and still green to subing, it helped me, and reinforced my position as a sub, but i am a very emotional sensative sub, and that may have been my problem others do experience |
| Ash & maya> | I think contracts can be a good thing when people think they need it - like kyle said - it can be an orientation in the beginning and a start to get to know each others expecations, likes and dislikes |
| Net + jen> | a BDSM contracts isn't going to protect you, judy no contract will |
| princess> | ok..playing devil's advocate... could this discussion be like the need for safe words? |
| ~*lillee*~> | <~~~~~ doesn't want a contract...or i'd be suing by now <laughing> |
| judys> | i agree that it will not protect you...that is why i wonder why we go through all of this....if we were about to enter a vanilla relationship, would a contract even come into the conversation?? |
| Net + jen> | <sees kyles point and agrees that perhaps with some
relationships a contract could be helpful> most likely not, judy |
| judys> | Okay...so why are we different?? |
| princess> | I think some Dom's use a contract to make a sub feel like
property...like there is a big change... that they are owned and some subs need that security |
| Net + jen> | i agree, princess |
| ~*lillee*~> | because society has dictated the socially-acceptable behaviours of vanilla relationships already |
| judys> | Oh, princess, my collar does that for me!! |
| princess> | mine too judys |
| Net + jen> | mine too |
| princess> | but seems to not be enough for some |
| ~*lillee*~> | i can't understand the need for a formal contract |
| judys> | Yes, i guess that contracts will be something of a personal preference. |
| PIRATE> | I believe princess has hit it on the head..... contracts are for insecure relationships |
| Net + jen> | i wonder if there is any couple out there with a contract that would include outside things, such as property, etc.? |
| princess> | I believe Sailor always has contracts and it does include property |
| Ash & maya> | I think it makes no sense discussing the the need of a contract - each couple looks at it in a different way - as each relationship is different |
| judys> | What kind of property?? |
| Net + jen> | and is it legal or no? |
| ~*lillee*~> | much like a prenuptual agreement? |
| princess> | most rt subs that I know...feel that ALL they own is no longer
theirs they are not legal |
| kyle*Shell> | Pirate Sir, you may have a point the reason the contract was made with Demi, was because of her insecurity |
| Net + jen> | so he's claiming all of her possessions simply because she is his sub? |
| princess> | yes Net..that is how it works for many |
| Net + jen> | it's jen, princess |
| princess> | and I think Sailor may have thought of it as a slave..but that is another discussion |
| ~*lillee*~> | that Dom better think twice about getting my property <laughing> |
| Net + jen> | perhaps you're right LOL sis |
| ~*lillee*~> | <innocent smile> |
| Net + jen> | <smiling at lillee as I take the keyboard back from jen> |
| princess> | if you need permission for everything..then many things are no
longer yours..that is part of the lifestyle I think and most of us give it up willingly..very willingly |
| Net + jen> | For the record, I agreed to host this topic but feel as jen... I don't see the need for a contract in our relationship. |
| PIRATE> | mistie of her own free will told me all that was hers is now mine.. |
| ~*lillee*~> | yes, i can see that, but then if you give everything to your
Master/Mistress, there will be legal documents involved...so it would be very formal give them your house, your proerties, your car but is that a slave or a sub? |
| Net + jen> | I do think the idea of a playlist for a new couple or a first meeting might be helpfull. |
| princess> | for me those things are the same thing lillee I am what my Master wants me to be...and he wants both..*grin*... <-- lucky princess |
| ~*lillee*~> | <smiling back> |
| Net + jen> | kyle, are you saying that you have a vt contract with your mistress/ |
| ~*lillee*~> | i still think that there are varying degrees within this lifestyle |
| princess> | yup |
| kyle*Shell> | Had one with Demi Sir |
| princess> | makes it interesting did it do any good in the long run kyle..or was it just useful initially? |
| Net + jen> | was it a contract, or just a 'list' of things that she expected
of you? or you of her? |
| princess> | ohhh rules are different |
| Net + jen> | and don't call me Sir, bro! LOL |
| kyle*Shell> | It was a contrat, i wrote it myself, from one on the net i found Sir |
| ~*lillee*~> | lol |
| Net + jen> | so then it was your idea? and if so, why did you feel you needed one? if you don't mind answering |
| PIRATE> | Well all this discussion is running in a circle.... I have given and argued my opinion so now I am gone...... |
| ~*mistie*~> | goodbye A/all |
| princess> | bye Pirate and mistee |
| ~*lillee*~> | <curious> so who here will deed over their home, give to their Master/Mistress all things they legally own? not the enjoyment of...but legal title to? |
| Net + jen> | Pirate... thanks and your comments are appreciated. |
| princess> | *just realized jen and Net are in the same place..*BIG SMILE** |
| kyle*Shell> | it was my idea, and i did to try to stop thew insecurity on her part, it was hard to a submit to a Domme who keeps asking if you want released every day |
| Net + jen> | bye Pirate and mistie... thanks for coming |
| ~*lillee*~> | Bye Pirate, it was nice seeing you |
| Net + jen> | lol princess |
| judys> | Not me, lillee!!! |
| ~*lillee*~> | bye mistie, nice meeting you <smiling> |
| Net + jen> | NO WAY RAY, sis! |
| ~*lillee*~> | bye, too\ <grinning at judys> |
| Ash & maya> | I think Pirate is right - lots of arguments and information was given here tonight - I want to thank Net for the great introduction to the topic and everyone for coming |
| bluebird P> | Good bye and ty for letting me sit in |
| ~*lillee*~> | but if you give all..is that not what you would do? |
| princess> | lillee..I think for many those are rt full-time commitments |
| Net + jen> | kyle, asking if you wanted to be released may have been her way of making sure you were happy, perhaps? |
| judys> | lillee...i would never give all...i would have to keep something of myself or i would disappear. |
| ~*lillee*~> | but i think that each can still own property....share it but
when they part the Dom/me keeps it all? seems like a great way to acquire real estate to me <laughing> |
| princess> | no.. |
| Net + jen> | it was a great discussion |
| judys> | Well, this was a very interesting conference....it appears that contracts are a very personal thing...depending on the Dom/me and sub. |
|
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